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Thread: The AWD debate

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  1. #41 Default  
    Quote Originally Posted by cheu_f50 View Post
    dont have time to debate this today in full. maybe later this week ill pick it up again.

    the front cannot pull in anymore than the direction of the angle of the wheels. if you have the wheels turned 10 degrees as an example, regardless of drivetrain, if you have ample traction (aka no understeer) the car will turn the same amount. From an engineering stand point, lets discuss this specific point when we have time without getting distracted with everything else. Because what I am saying is the whole "pull in" thing is part mental, part feeling, and not engineering.

    The open diff thing is purely down to preference. To say open diff AWD is better isnt any more valid than saying RWD with limited slip is better. You say you'd rather have 1 front and 1 rear. I say you'll end up getting stuck if you have one side of the car on the shoulder of an icy road or many winter parallel parking situation. As such, it goes back to what I have been saying - AWD doesnt offer benefits. It offers trade offs. Having the ability to power either left side or right side, is literally no better than being able to drive both rear (or both fronts assuming the fronts are not open diff). you just end up with different scenarios where one works and the other doesnt.
    I don't agree with you on the first part. There are in fact more forces propelling the front wheels in the direction of turning. In person I can explain better.


    And if that's your argument on snow, then RWD is no better either. In snow RWD is a tradeoff as well. It all comes down to what specific situation you happen to come across. In my opinion I would rather have the AWD because it's a better general case solution. A system with a LSD rear and open front would give you 3 wheels powered would it not? I would state that in snow that is better than RWD because you are powering both sides of the rear and a section of the front.
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  2. #42 Default  
    you said the disadvantage is not significant, its acceptable to you. That's only because you and other people who accepts the AWD system believes that the benefits outweights the drawbacks. if your conclusion from that is AWD is better for winter driving, thats as much of a blanket statement as me saying it is not a platform for better driving. because there are many systems out there that does not do any better.
    Oh Yeah!
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  3. #43 Default  
    Quote Originally Posted by cegan09 View Post
    I don't agree with you on the first part. There are in fact more forces propelling the front wheels in the direction of turning. In person I can explain better.


    And if that's your argument on snow, then RWD is no better either. In snow RWD is a tradeoff as well. It all comes down to what specific situation you happen to come across. In my opinion I would rather have the AWD because it's a better general case solution. A system with a LSD rear and open front would give you 3 wheels powered would it not? I would state that in snow that is better than RWD because you are powering both sides of the rear and a section of the front.
    I dont think I have said RWD is better. I have said RWD can do the same thing. Thus AWD isnt beneficial. It isnt adding any more value in many many cases. That is the bases for me saying AWD is useless.

    If you have 1 LSD in the rear, and a viscous center, you can drive 3 wheels, which is in fact "better" than being able to only drive 2 wheels if you are stuck on ice or snow. But you dont specify that only AWD with enough LSD provides benefits. So by Pete's argument, either you are changing the goal post, or the blanket statement is an absolute statement when its not always 100% true.

    We'll get back to the front wheel pulling thing later.
    Oh Yeah!
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  4. #44 Default  
    Quote Originally Posted by cheu_f50 View Post
    I dont think I have said RWD is better. I have said RWD can do the same thing. Thus AWD isnt beneficial. It isnt adding any more value in many many cases. That is the bases for me saying AWD is useless.

    If you have 1 LSD in the rear, and a viscous center, you can drive 3 wheels, which is in fact "better" than being able to only drive 2 wheels if you are stuck on ice or snow. But you dont specify that only AWD with enough LSD provides benefits. So by Pete's argument, either you are changing the goal post, or the blanket statement is an absolute statement when its not always 100% true.

    We'll get back to the front wheel pulling thing later.
    I wasn't making a blanket statement there, I was calling out a very specific AWD setup (LSD rear with Open front), and condition (lots of snow).


    But back to the downsides, I walked through what you consider downsides, and the only one i really see as valid is drivetrain loss. Unless you can refute what I said.
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  5. #45 Default  
    Quote Originally Posted by cegan09 View Post
    I wasn't making a blanket statement there, I was calling out a very specific AWD setup (LSD rear with Open front), and condition (lots of snow).

    But back to the downsides, I walked through what you consider downsides, and the only one i really see as valid is drivetrain loss. Unless you can refute what I said.
    Im not going to keep going he said she said etc. No one else brought up the whole diff thing until I did. So until the discussion that a LSD rear and open front drives 3 wheels, everything statement about AWD has been a blanket statement.

    I dont refute them. How valid drawbacks are and how much weight we give them in consideration of the system varies from person to person. You discount them when I dont. You add in the fact that you can have lighter wheels, but you can also add lighter wheels to everything else. Bottom line all things being equal, AWD can at best limit the drawbacks, not eliminate.

    You said you dont like power steering as much as a manual rack, and i agree with you 100% on that from a sports car driving feel perspective. Not sure what more to say about it. Everything varies, there will always be exceptions.
    Oh Yeah!
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  6. #46 Default  
    Fun fact:

    Under normal driving circumstances.... none of this matters
    Quote Originally Posted by bigben View Post
    You.... have problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    you have issues.
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  7. #47 Default  
    Quote Originally Posted by Intheflesh View Post
    Fun fact:

    Under normal driving circumstances.... none of this matters
    Exactly.

    AWD doesn't provide benefits

    *See previous posts for limits and restrictions.
    Oh Yeah!
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  8. #48 Default  
    just like a black car doesn't provide benefits over a white car. doesn't matter
    Quote Originally Posted by bigben View Post
    You.... have problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Pete View Post
    you have issues.
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  9. #49 Default  
    Was this ever about normal driving? I thought the debate was over performance benefits/downsides. For normal driving there's not advantage to RWD either, just extra drivetrain loss. In fact if you only care about normal driving we should all have FWD micro cars with a 3 cylinder engine.

    I ascertain that AWD has benefits and that the downsides are overblown in Cheu's eyes.
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  10. #50 Default  
    No but people moved the goal post for me. I want to talk specifics for wheel pull with you.

    At this point, we've established only very specific set up of AWD can potentially make up the deficit for drawbacks that we weight differently
    Oh Yeah!
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  11. #51 Default  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheu_f50 View Post
    I dont think I have said RWD is better. I have said RWD can do the same thing. Thus AWD isnt beneficial. It isnt adding any more value in many many cases. That is the bases for me saying AWD is useless.

    If you have 1 LSD in the rear, and a viscous center, you can drive 3 wheels, which is in fact "better" than being able to only drive 2 wheels if you are stuck on ice or snow. But you dont specify that only AWD with enough LSD provides benefits. So by Pete's argument, either you are changing the goal post, or the blanket statement is an absolute statement when its not always 100% true.

    We'll get back to the front wheel pulling thing later.
    I don't really know the details as well as I should, but I believe a lot of AWD systems simulate the function of an LSD by applying brakes at the slipping wheel.

    -Justin
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